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Debate About The Devil
Dear friends,
The following is a dialogue between a Church of God (General Conference) Pastor and me dated 3/06/08. This brother graduated the Atlanta Bible College. He sent me a list of Scriptures that supposedly teaches that the devil is a fallen angel or a personality fallen angel. The scriptures in blue are his verses for believing in a literal fallen angel devil and demons. My comments in black are a rebuttal to those reasons, rather an alternate explanation for these verses.
I hoped to provide further dialog but I have not received a response to any of my questions. I think that there are no real answers that he could have provided that would not contradict his traditional view of Satan and Demons. Such is the case with so many others we have been in conversation about this subject.
Here is the list he sent me:
Hey Scott, sorry it took so long to get back to you. Been busy.
Here are the passages I told you about:
2 Cor 4:4 "the god of this age has blinded the eyes of those who don't believe"
1 John 5:19 "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one"
Rev. 12:9 "Satan is (currently) deceiving all of the nations"
John 12, 14, 16 "Satan is called the Ruler of this world"
Eph. 6:12 "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers, principalities, world forces (the Greek here says kosmo-crats (think kosmos +democrats))"
Matt. 4 "the devil approached Jesus" (using the definite article, and using the same verb used not but a few verses later about the angels whom approached Jesus externally)
Luke 4:41, the Greek makes it clear (at least to me) that Jesus talks to demons and the demons talk back to Jesus
James 2:19 "the demons believe that God is one and shudder"
Genesis 3 (someone lied to Adam/Eve, and it can't be God nor the two humans, Rev 12:9 at least on the surface seems to link Satan to the Eden account)
These are just the reasons why I see it my way, at this particular moment. Yet, I'm always open with a Berean attitude.
Thanks for taking the time to read this. I hope it proves informational. If you are a person who can maybe answer any of the question I have laid out to this brother I would be interested in your thoughts.
Bro. Scott Ketelsen 253-219-2413
Hi ______,
Here is a short reply or rather how I would interpret theses scriptures. As I stated on the phone there is a hermeneutical error of broad brushing our beliefs and concepts about the devil and satan that is swept over the whole of Scripture. I think it is wrong to assume that certain phrases in Scripture automatically apply to a personal “fallen angel devil.” There are many assumptions that are being made. Contexts will usually determine the adversary.
Please accept this letter in the spirit of love and fellowship. I will call you soon and we can talk about this. I do not have much time to do this sort of thing online. I asked you to email me so we could have some starting point. I pray that you will at least consider the view I am presenting. Like I told you I hold to a modified version of what the Christadelphians teach. There is much revelation in what they have brought forward. However they do the same broad brushing that the personality people do when it comes to their point of view (that is with the “sin in the flesh” issue)
Sorry it took so long to get back with you.
2 Cor 4:4 "the god of this age has blinded the eyes of those who don't believe"
u 2 Cor 4:4 The God of this world.
There is only one God not two.
No mention of Satan, the devil or demons in the verse.
V:6 God is the one who gives light, therefore He gives darkness. (Isa. 45:7)
The God of this age is Yahweh.
Ps 145:13 Thy kingdom [is] a kingdom of all ages, And Thy dominion [is] in all
generations. YLT
Jer. 32:27 Yahweh, the God of all flesh.
The Eastern Aramaic texts read:
To those in this world whose minds have been blinded by God, because they did
not believe. (see Sources of Evil, Strong delusion etc..)
Rom. 11:8 God (not Satan) blinded Israel to the Gospel. (2 Cor. 3:14)
Again it is an assumption to read into the context the devil/Satan or demons, they are nowhere present in the context.
1 John 5:19 "the whole world lies in the power of the evil one"
Is there any mention of Satan/devil or demons in the context?
The evil one is equated with sin v16-18.
Sin personified scriptures
Sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you. (Gen. 4:7)
Sin hath reigned unto Death. (Rom. 5 21)
Sin wrought in me. (Rom. 7:8)
Sin deceived me . . Sin slew me. (Rom. 7:11)
Sin is a master. (Rom. 6:14)
Law of Sin waging war. (Rom. 7:23)
Obedience to sin. (Rom. 6:16)
Let not Sin reign in your body, that ye should obey it. (Rom. 6:12)
The evil one here 1 jn 5:19 may be just another example of personification.
Rev. 12:9 "Satan is (currently) deceiving all of the nations"
I agree with your statement (world governments acting as an/the adversary that is “Satan”) however the context points to the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns not a singular person/Satan.
Does the Satan you believe in have 7 heads and 10 horns?
Is there then more than one Satan?
Rev 1:1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place;
NASU
Revelation was written aprox. 4000 after the event happened therefore it cannot be talking about what happened in the garden of Eden but what is about to happen.
When did Satan fall?
u Rev. 12:1-9 Michael and the great dragon.
No mention of angels sinning, or any reference to Eden, or rebellion against God,
causing people to sin.
The serpent was one of the beasts of the field, made from dust, (Gen. 1:24-25)
(see notes on Gen. 3 above)
V: 3 The dragon a beast with seven heads and ten horns, a political or religious
system. Which is, that serpent of old called the devil and Satan (v: 9),
therefore it cannot literally be a serpent.
Pharaoh is likened to a dragon, Ezk. 32:2
Being cast out of heaven is symbolic of losing authority or power,
(Isa. 14:12; Jer. 51:53; Lam. 2:1; Matt.12:23)
Is this literal or symbolical language?
V: 1 The woman, standing on the moon, stars on her head.
V: 4 The dragons tail is really long, threw a third of the stars of heaven
to earth? The earth would be destroyed if that really happened.
A particular beast cast out in v: 9 and in v: 10 there is rejoicing. This does not sound like the events of Gen. 3. Gen. 3:24 He casteth out the man, YLT.
Rev. 12 seems to mirror the events in Gen. 3 however, the snake was not cast out of the garden, man was. Man in Gen. 3 typifies the human system in authority at the time of Rev. 12. Dan. 7:9 the thrones of the beast / kingdoms are cast down, prior to the establishment of God’s Kingdom.
The beast of Rev. 12 representing a religious and/ or a political power seem to have the characteristics of the serpent in Eden. It does not say that is the snake. The snake was told that he would die,(Gen. 3:14) it was therefore mortal.
Matt 10:16 Jesus commands us to be like serpents, same Greek word in
Rev 12 9.
Just because a Greek word is used in a context does not automatically equated the same definition or communicate the same idea. I am sure Jesus was not telling us to be like the serpent in Eden or according to your view Satan?
Was he?
Do you believe Jesus telling his disciple to be like the serpent in Eden?
Really is that what you are saying? And this is my point about the broad brush stroke the personality people apply to the scriptures. It leads to all types of error like this.
Look what Paul believed about the serpent
2 Cor 11:3
as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
KJV
Same Greek word. He taught it to be a literal snake, a serpent. No mention of Satan or the Devil. You know my thoughts on adding to the scriptures. This sort of circular reasoning is what the Trinitarians do.
John 12, 14, 16 "Satan is called the Ruler of this world"
You mean these scriptures?
John 12:31
" Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
NASU
John 14:30-31
30 "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;
NASU
John 16:11
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
NASU
Please explain where you come up with your statement that this is speaking of a fallen angel Satan?
Here is it in context?
As we spoke on the phone the other day, it is another assumption that the personality people do. The term Satan is NOT a proper name.
Just look at the Greek rules regarding the definite article “the.” There is not one place where this occurs in the Greek Scriptures. Yet the Devil proponents insist the THE Satan or THE devil is some solid proof.
With Nominative Nouns
Normally a subject will have the article (unless it is a pronoun or proper noun).
Lk. 11:7 The door is shut.
We never see in Scripture, the Jesus, the Yahweh, the Peter, the Paul, etc…
If the article were signifying a particular being all the time, then why do we not see the article in front of any other proper names? So the term, Satan or devil cannot be proper a proper name.
Dictionary – MSN Encarta
proper noun
- capitalized name: the name of a specific person or thing, normally beginning with a capital letter and not used with the indefinite article or a modifier, e.g. "York," "Sally," or "Henderson"
Where is there one place in the Greek where a proper noun is preceded by the definite article “the?”
Now here is another problem for the personality people, what is the devils name?
Lucifer is found only in the KJV only, and no where else. Do we base our Biblical interpretations on one verse?
Eph. 6:12 "we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers, principalities, world forces (the Greek here says kosmo-crats (think kosmos +democrats))" (you are funny! I like to call them demon-cats! now I know there is Greek to support it! HA)
Exactly “world forces” no mention of the devil/Satan, or any other super natural forces.
We are also commanded to subject ourselves to them?
Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
KJV
Too many assumptions thrown into the context. Can you see my point? Are you starting to see beyond tradition?
Matt. 4 "the devil approached Jesus" (using the definite article, and using the same verb used not but a few verses later about the angels whom approached Jesus externally)
Was the same “the devil” destroyed in Heb 2:14? If not is there more than one “the devil?”) I have never had anyone be able to answer that one for me yet.
There are too many inconsistencies in Biblical interpretation when one holds on to traditions Satan. (My opinion)
Here comes the modified version.
It may have been an angel doing the tempting? This does not mean it was fallen or sinful. There is no indication from Scripture.
Here comes the standard Christadelphian view. It may have been sin in the flesh as we have seen sin can act as a personality in Scripture.
Sin personified scriptures
Sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you. (Gen. 4:7)
Sin hath reigned unto Death. (Rom. 5 21)
Sin wrought in me. (Rom. 7:8)
Sin deceived me . . Sin slew me. (Rom. 7:11)
Sin is a master. (Rom. 6:14)
Law of Sin waging war. (Rom. 7:23)
Obedience to sin. (Rom. 6:16)
Let not Sin reign in your body, that ye should obey it. (Rom. 6:12)
u Matt. 4:1-11; Lk. 4:1-13; Mk. 1:12,13 The wilderness temptation.
Jesus “was in all points tempted, like as we are” (Heb. 4:15)
Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust. (Ja. 1:14)
Sin and temptation come “from within, out of the heart of man. (Mk. 7: 21)
The temptation was orchestrated by God. (see Temptation section)
We are tempted by the “devil” of our own lusts or evil desires, and so was Jesus. We are not tempted by an evil being suddenly standing next to us and prompting
us to sin, an assumption made by many with no Biblical support.
Jesus was tempted just as we are. (Heb. 4:15,16)
Paul borrows the language of "the tempter" coming to Jesus and applies it to "the
tempter" coming to Christians. (1 Thess. 3:5)
The language cannot be literal.
Matt. 4:8 Jesus was shown all the Kingdoms of the World. This cannot be taken
literally as if Jesus actually went there and saw them.
Matt. 4:5 One saw Jesus or the devil on top of the temple. This would have made
a commotion in the city.
Matt. 4:1 His temptation was literally in the wilderness. He could not have gone to
Mt. Hermon (the highest mountain in the north of Israel) to see all the
Kingdoms of the world, or stand on top of the temple in Jerusalem.
Luke 4:41, the Greek makes it clear (at least to me) that Jesus talks to demons and the demons talk back to Jesus
Do spirits have mouths? Vocal chords? If yes, how do you know? It is obvious the person the demoniac is speaking.
I agree with you Jesus is talking to someone, I suggest it the person.
Have you ever talked to a person who was mentally deranged? Out of there mind?
Lk. 4:33-36 Man possessed by the spirit of an unclean demon, (not in right mind)
The man cried out. (Not the unclean spirit)
Have you come to destroy us? (Torture was a common exorcism
practice of the day) (Matt. 8:29, Mk. 5:7)
I know who You are — the Holy One of God! (How did the man know
who Jesus was? (Matt. 16:17, 1 Cor. 12:3)
But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be quiet and come out of him!"
Very common that these people afflicted with these illnesses get the revelation
on whom Jesus is when he arrives.
(Mk. 3:11-12, Lk. 4:41, Ac. 16:17-18, Ja. 2:19)
Maybe their sickness and affliction has broken their heart enough for the Father
to reveal the son to them?
Maybe they truly understand the state of mind they are in?
Demons in the OT always refer to Idols.
They accused Jesus of having a demon and equated it with insanity, calling him mad.
John 10:19-21
19 At these words the Jews were again divided. 20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?"
21 But others said, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"
NIV
James 2:19 "the demons believe that God is one and shudder"
Ja. 2:19 God is One, The demons also believe, and tremble.
Context is comparing people who try to keep the law and justify themselves by it.
James seems to be equating these people with demons. Namely the
Jews. (v: 12, 13, also Rom. 7:9, 9:31; Gal. 5:3, 1 Cor. 8:4; Gal. 4:8-11)
Where is there mention of fallen angels in the context?
Is there one place in Scripture where Satan and demons appear in context as being related to each other?
Is there one place in Scripture where the Devil had a plan to do anything?
(provide references)
Genesis 3 (someone lied to Adam/Eve, and it can't be God nor the two humans, Rev 12:9 at least on the surface seems to link Satan to the Eden account)
Rev 1:1 talks for things YET TO COME, (not what had already happened)
Paul believed it was a snake.
2 Cor 11:3
as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
KJV
See notes on Rev 12:9
u Gen. 3 The Serpent in Eden.
Gen 3:1 The serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord
God had made. Donkey talks to Balaam. (Num. 22:21-23, 2 Pet. 2:16)
Adam did not even talk to the serpent. (in Adam all die, 1 Cor. 15:22)
The serpent was formed out of the ground. (Gen. 2:17) Man (Gen. 2:7)
All God had made was “very good.” (Gen. 1:31) This includes the serpent.
No mention of Satan, the devil or demons. The serpent, a beast of the field.
If angels sinned and fell and came to earth at this time in history Gen. 3, then where and when did they fall from in Gen. 6? Gen. 6 is many years after Gen. 3.
No mention of fallen angels that sinned, in Genesis.
Where is the word Satan mentioned in the whole book of Genesis?
Maybe the serpent ate from this same tree?
Eve saw it was desirable…. to make one wise. (Gen. 3:6)
Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a
delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise.
with
1 Jn. 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes
and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the
world.
Gen. 3:6 Good for food 1 Jn. 2:17 Lust of the flesh
Delight to the eyes Lust of the eyes
Desirable to make one wise Boastful pride of life
V: 12 Adam blamed God, the woman whom YOU gave me, and blamed Eve.
V: 13 Eve blames the serpent. The serpent blames no one. He acted according
to his nature. The serpent acts as an amoral being.
V: 14 All the days of your life. Indicates the serpent has a life span
V: 14 The serpent is cursed, Satan the devil not cursed.
V: 19 Adam cursed by God to return to the dust. (Rom. 5:12-19) Not Satan.
(Eccl. 3:19-22 There is no advantage for man over beast.)
2 Cor 11:3 As the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness. (1 Tim. 2:13-14)
(Paul believed the story it as it is written, Satan not mentioned)
(So did Jesus, Matt. 19:5-6)
These are just the reasons why I see it my way, at this particular moment.
Yet, I'm always open with a Berean attitude.
Please be, I pray you will be.
Your friend in Christ, in His love, talk to you soon,
Scott 253-219-2413
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